The ETPL is finally on the field after eight years of false starts — but with no TV money, few sponsors and most of the launch events held outside the three host countries. In this cricexec Roundtable, Nathan Johns and Peter Della Penna join Zee Zaidi to work through what the league needs to survive its first season, why the ECB’s refusal to rubber-stamp the Euro Nations Cup looks like spite rather than commercial logic, and what the ICC’s rewritten World Cup qualification pathway does to Ireland, Scotland, the Netherlands and the USA.
Transcript
Zee Zaidi
All right. And we are here at the cricexec Roundtable, joined by 2 of my favorite journalists and friends in the cricket world, Nathan Johns, who we all know really well as, one of the, top journalists in the Ireland and the UK area. and Peter Della Penna, my, American buddy, who is, super known in American and associate circles and beyond. Gents, thanks for joining.
Nathan Johns
Oh, thank you. Great to be here.
Peter Della Penna
Zee, when you say we’re a couple of the top journalists in Ireland and in the associate world, the bar is very low. I mean, the pool is shallow. That’s not really saying much.
Zee Zaidi
Yeah. Well, maybe for you and me, right? ‘Cause, like, there’s maybe one other guy, right? But, that bar is low. Nathan, I would say is a fish in a big pond, right?
Nathan Johns
Oh, I don’t know. I mean, with the Irish press crew on a good day, there’s probably 5 of us who consistently- … write about cricket. And even still, they live in different parts of the country. So, depending on where the games are, you might only have 2 or 3 of us actually at any game. So it’s still a shallow pond in Dublin and Belfast and beyond.
Peter Della Penna
You see, we’re, we’re in the same boat. You know, I can say the same. It’s maybe on a good day, 4 or 5 people show up to a match. So on any given day, Nathan, we both have about a 20 percent chance of being the top journalists in our respective regions.
Zee Zaidi
Exactly.
Nathan Johns
I’ll take those odds any day of the week. Any day.
Zee Zaidi
Love it. so, okay, so let’s jam. you know, we’re gonna talk about some of the biggest issues this week, or these days. The 1st thing I wanted to get into is today, that we’re recording is August 26th, my birthday, for those keeping track or not keeping track, is the launch of the ETPL, the European T20 Premier League, based out of, in theory, 3 countries, Ireland, the Netherlands, and Scotland, 6 teams. They’ve been, you know, working towards this day for a long time. It’s finally here. It’s finally launched. You know, Nathan, you’re probably closest to this. What’s your impression of the launch and the fact that it’s happening?
Nathan Johns
Well, far more importantly, you kept that very quiet. happy birthday, Zee. I think that’s, much more significant than any new cricket franchise league.
Zee Zaidi
I stopped celebrating them long time ago.
Nathan Johns
look, it’s I Look, I’m, I’m not there. I’m I’ll go to the Dublin legs of the of the leg, singular, of the ETPL, which is in about 10 days, 2 weeks time. So that’s kind of that’s maybe when it’ll kinda kick in for me and be really real. As you both know, it’s sometimes hard to feel part of something or get properly excited about something when you’re not there. But I have to say, watching on from afar, the production looks great. there’s more people at the game than I thought there would be. clearly, the new novelty effects, it’s, it’s having a big pull. I know one of the Amsterdam guys, thought they might get some people at the nearby Hockey World Cup, which is going on, some crossover Indians, South Africans, Australians. So they had a bit of a marketing strategy there in getting people in the door, and it looks like that’s worked reasonably well. I’m… I wouldn’t I’m not gonna go as to far as far as to say I’m amazed this is actually happening after nearly, what, 8 years of trying and failing to get a European franchise competition, off the ground. ‘Cause I, ’cause I think about, you know, a month, 6 weeks ago, it looked pretty solid. But, it’s great to see. I can’t personally, I can’t wait for the 2 Irish teams who don’t start until tomorrow. Maybe when I see the Irish guys getting involved, that’s when it becomes a little bit more real as well. Albeit, there’s, there’s 2 Irish players playing today in Curtis Campher and Jai Mundra. it’s, it’s fantastic, to see that there’s something like this has finally come to fruition. For the 1st time in my career, it feels like there actually is a cricketing industry, in Europe that can produce… even the fact that this game has DRS is a big deal. I mean, unless it’s India or England, our games involving European nations tend not to have that type of technology. They can’t afford it. So it’s, it’s fantastic. There is a small part of me that wishes there was a way of doing this and creating this for the national teams and to have this product. And, and when that and I know that’s probably one of the topics we’ll, we’ll get onto with the potential EuroNation’s Cup. But look, that’s the world we live in. You need private equity, and private equity is gonna invest in their own teams and their own brands rather than national governing bodies. So, great that these guys are getting some opportunities like this. you know, I saw I watched Curtis Campher facing Heinrich Nordje and struggling a little bit earlier, but that’s, that’s what it’s all about for these guys. It’s, it’s getting, the players exposure to that level of player and making them better.
Zee Zaidi
Peter, you’re in England. Has this kind of hit your radar? Are you, like, noticing? Are people there noticing in Manchester?
Peter Della Penna
No. That’s cricket, though, in this part of the world. I mean, I’ve always felt that cricket is overhyped in England and the UK in particular. I mean, what was in the news this weekend? It was the start of the Premier League. That’s what people were talking about. So the fact that this is happening late summer, when you think of all the resistance to The Hundred, The Hundred is wrapped up in terms of English cricket. The focus has now shifted to the Pakistan Test Series. But even that is very limited in the broad landscape of British sports culture. I mean, everybody has been talking about, “United flopped and United was a disgrace, and how did Hull City, who’s just been promoted, wind up beating them nil? And, oh, what a awful start to the Premier League season for United. And City had to go to injury time to pull out a win, in their opening encounter.” So that’s what’s dominating the discussion. And- … I don’t think that’s a slight on the ETPL, but I think it just more speaks to cricket broadly that it’s always fighting for column space in England. And if that’s the case in a big 3 country, that doesn’t really augur well for the health of cricket more broadly. I will say that one of the things I found a little bit bizarre about the up to the ETPL is that the majority of the PR and launch events did not take place in any of the Netherlands, Scotland, or Ireland. You know?
Zee Zaidi
Yeah. Well-
Peter Della Penna
They were doing launch stuff in Sydney and launch stuff in Dubai and, you know, other stuff, which just, again, it speaks to kind of a little bit of the money grab of, oh- … foreign investors seeing dollar signs in their eyes or euro signs in their eyes and not really engaging with the local community you know, and that’s, that’s a big issue with a lot of these leagues. You could say the same thing about Major League Cricket in the US to a certain degree.
Zee Zaidi
That’s fair. No, in fairness, I mean, I hear what you’re saying. They had one event in Australia when they were announcing 2 teams that were owned by Australians. In fairness, in May, I was there in Dublin. There was their 2nd announced, event, which was in Dublin, and they announced, the Rotterdam team, right? Because Jonty Rhodes was there, along with his sons.
Peter Della Penna
Why are they announcing a Rotterdam team in Dublin instead of Rotterdam? To be fair, they also announced Dublin.
Zee Zaidi
They also announced, they also announced the Guardians- … right? The Dublin Guardians. So at the same time. So it was Rahul Dravid was actually there, and it was really the Dublin team in Dublin, and they, and they had the r They have to do… I mean, they can’t be everywhere, right? So they did two at a, at a time. look, in fairness, you’re right. Look, a a lot of the ownership is Australian, which is interesting, right? The What, to me, what is interesting, and I talked to these guys about this, is there’s no IPL ownership at all, right? Even though the 4 founders are Indian, and Abhishek Bachchan is obviously a big Bollywood star, and IPL teams tend to sort of show up. But these guys made it a point to take, I think, a different strategy, which was, “Okay, let’s get, you know, let’s get big cricketers or sports people owning teams, partnering with businesses.” so, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a slightly different approach. I don’t know if by design or by they… that’s the way the chips fell.
Nathan Johns
I think it’s a, it’s a bit of both. I think they definitely didn’t want 6 owned teams in the way that has happened in other new franchise leagues. Obviously, South Africa is a pretty good example of this, of, all of the South African teams are in, are owned by IPL owners.
Zee Zaidi
That’s right, all 6.
Nathan Johns
Is that right? So they made a conscious decision, I think, not to have that. But, like, for example, Rahul Dravid was supposed to be running the Glasgow team, but he’s now- … in Dublin because initially, what an IPL owner in the Mumbai Indians were in, you know, involved in or at least approached. I don’t know how serious those discussions got, but they were, in theory, touted as potential owners for Dublin. That didn’t happen. So there was talk about trying to get some IPL ownership involved, and that certainly would have added incredible amounts of credibility to the project, and maybe made getting other investors easier. But ultimately, I, I don’t think it was ever gonna be 6 IPL owners coming in. And I think a lot of people in the countries involved wouldn’t, wouldn’t have wanted that. I mean, Peter, you know, you say in the UK, I mean, it… at times, there’s, there’s outward hostility in The Hundred to some of the IPL owners, especially when they post awkward Twitter videos of their players reading, songs off a, off a piece of paper and then delete the videos. But, that’s, that’s a separate issue, I guess.
Zee Zaidi
Yeah. I mean, look, Peter and I know what that’s like, right? Like, in the MLC, there’s 3 and a half IPL owners, right? 3 outright, one the Yorkers are part owned. And so is… [clears throat] There’s pros and cons, right? There’s definitely pros and cons to IPL ownership in franchise, you know.
Peter Della Penna
I think, I think there would be more noise about those issues in major league cricket if cricket was a bigger part of the sports ecosystem in America than it is in the UK, relatively speaking. I mean, you have a, obviously a much more established structure in England and a much more loyal and passionate allegiance to the counties. And so when those kind of things happen with The Hundred franchises, it provokes a much more visceral reaction, whether on the ground, in the venue, or on social media. Whereas in the US, when the MI New York is doing that stuff… I mean, the fact that the New York franchise has been branded MI New York riles a hell of a lot of people up. But if you walked into Times Square and asked Joe Q. Public what their thoughts are on MI New York, he would say, “Oh, tell me more.”
Zee Zaidi
What’s cricket?
Peter Della Penna
What… You know. Well, not necessarily what’s cricket, but it’s just like, “Oh, do we have a team? Oh, that’s cool.” Like, the… just the lack of awareness that it even exists in the 1st place. I mean, there was no ticker tape parade either time MI New York won the MLC title, you know. They didn’t… they weren’t feted like the Yankees or the Giants are when they win a World Series or a Super Bowl.
Nathan Johns
There was nobody at… There was nobody carrying Elmo’s head through through the streets of New York-… because he didn’t side with the Knicks during the, during the finals.
Peter Della Penna
Exactly. There you go.
Zee Zaidi
Just me. I’m like the one New York man who, like, knows what’s up. I actually… It’s funny. I have… Not… And this is, this is fan brag. Well, at the, after the final when they won, last year, QDK, I just happened to be there, and QDK, like, tossed his cap into the crowd, and I caught it. So I have that, and he had this big, amazing knock. And so, I had that cap on display in my apartment, after-
Peter Della Penna
This is the crowd of people in Texas, not the crowd of people lining 5th Avenue in New York City.
Zee Zaidi
Yeah, exactly. It was, it was the, it was that, it was the handful of us on the side. It was very sweaty, and I washed it, and then, and then I get like… so but-
Nathan Johns
Can Can I just jump in quick, though? I’ll make one final point just to jump in- … on what Peter said about the kind of the hostility because of the original county loyalship, loyalty that is there in England. Obviously, like in Ireland, there isn’t necessarily that. Like, okay, there’s a lot of loyalty towards Ireland and in, well, by default, Scotland and the Dutch and their nations. But, you know, this isn’t cannibalizing a domestic system in the way that maybe The 100 is, or cannibalizing the fact that, you know, England now have to play their highest profile cricket, which is this test series against Pakistan, not in the peak of summer and going into September rather than in an ideal window. I mean, if these games, the ETPL wasn’t happening, most of these players wouldn’t be playing cricket right now. We saw that last year when the ETPL was postponed, and, you know, Cricket Ireland in particular, because they’re kind of the driving force of the 3, got really badly criticized for not having a plan B because all of a sudden there was a month, 6 weeks in the height of summer where their players didn’t have any cricket because they didn’t have the, a plan B or the wherewithal to organize any other games. So I think it’s worth mentioning that as well, and that is why I think it will be easier for owners in the ETPL to win over the local cricket fans, the few of them that are there in this European structure, than it will be for The 100 owners to win over, county fans, because there’s nowhere else for them to go, right? – Now, there are a one hundred other obstacles that they face that, other franchise leagues don’t, but that is probably not one of them.
Zee Zaidi
Yeah. And look, where I’m optimistic… I mean, I’ll say 2 things. Where One, more opportunities for player to, players to play is always a good thing, right? I mean, this is a legit tournament with legit owners, right? Set aside the shady ones, right? A lot of the T10, like, nonsense that goes out there are on there, right? Like, the Max 60 or whatever. But generally, more opportunities for players is a good thing. We’ve got 7 American players in the ETPL, right? Which is, which is great. These guys are great. They’re gonna be on Showcase more. That’s one thing. The other thing that I’m actually excited about with the ETPL, and we wrote about this, is, like, these are 3 cricketing countries, right? and obviously, they play, cricket plays 2nd fiddle in these markets to other sports. Sure. but, like, the roots of cricket run so deep, right? When we did this piece on the ETPL a year ago, I spoke to the, at the time, the CEO and chair of the KNCB, right? Both, like Dutch, Guido and Lucas, both older Dutch guys in their 60s and I think maybe 70s. not, let’s say, not diaspora, right? This is like, these are like sort of Dutch guys. And they were both like, “Yeah, we played cricket as kids at clubs. That’s what we did.” Right? And in Scotland, there’s technically more cricket registered players than rugby players. Rugby is a bigger sport, but Scotland’s playable, right? And in Ireland, Nathan, you know, right? There’s crickets, cricket’s played. So I think these are where I see the difference between America and here is, look, you’re still trying to grow a sport, but you’re not trying to, like, grow roots the way you are in America. And so I think their starting position is a, is a, is an is a good one, right? This is These are cricketing countries, and kind of like Nathan was saying, they, they deserve… There are fans in these countries who I’ve met, they deserve to have, like, a cricket product that they can cheer for. So this is hopefully It’s all about the economics, right? Hopefully, it sustains.
Nathan Johns
Well, that, that’s it. That’s the one caveat, right? At least in an MLC market, the market is potentially huge, so you’re gonna get some people sponsoring it. You might even get somebody to pay for the TV rights. I mean, owners in the ETPL have gone on record saying they’re not gonna make any TV money this year. I know the Dublin team doesn’t have any sponsors. I think Amsterdam are selling merch, but other teams aren’t. I mean, it’s great that it seems like they’ve sold a few tickets for today’s game because otherwise, you know, the broadcast revenue, merchandise revenue, the sponsorship revenue, it it just isn’t there. Like, I’m seeing as many ads on the side of the pitch for Cricket Ireland and the Dutch Cricket Board as I am for any actual company that’s paid to be a part of this, right? So it’s great that these players are getting cricket, but ultimately, this is gonna have to make a bit of money for the people who are paying for this to stick around long enough, right? That’s, that’s, that’s the basic… That’s, that ultimately, that is In the short term, cricket, great, but in the long term, this has to actually make sense. Otherwise, we’re gonna be back to where we were 2 years ago with Dutch, Irish, and Scottish players moaning about how they don’t, they don’t, they don’t get enough games.
Peter Della Penna
I mean, to me, that is the litmus test for growth. One of the points that Nathan just touched on there is… I remember when the GT20 Canada was 1st getting off the ground. And to me, one of the things that signified like, “Oh, this is starting to actually get some traction locally,” was when Canada Dry stepped in as a tournament sponsor. And for me, growing up in New Jersey, even though Canada Dry is a Canadian ginger ale brand, like, we used to drink Canada Dry all the time. It was a very known brand. And it was like, “Wow, Canada Dry isn’t like just, the little mom and pop shop around the corner who’s got their sign on the boundary. Canada Dry is bringing on, themselves on board. That’s a big deal.” And you’re starting to see that a little bit in MLC with Lexus in particular coming on board. And that, to me, something like that lends a bit of legitimacy to say, “Hey, they’re moving beyond the traditional…” Cricket avenues of sourcing income. It’s, hey, Lexus is a big brand, and prior to that, Toyota. And I think even the Unicorns had a team sponsorship with Cadillac a couple years ago. So those things kind of mean something. And for me, in the ETPL, an equivalent would be, all right, when is Guinness step on board?
Zee Zaidi
Yeah, Guinness, Phillips, right? Some local…
Peter Della Penna
You know, those kind of things. If I see Guinness on the boundary boards, that to me is gonna say, “Oh, well, now they’ve, they’ve got people who are well beyond cricket in the broader Irish community.” It’s so funny-
Zee Zaidi
You’ll see it in Guinness and Nathan’s hand, right? That’s the one you’ll see, right? [laughing] Like, it’ll be-
Nathan Johns
Well, maybe not, maybe not in the summer. I’m more of a winter Guinn cozy winter Guinness man than a, than a hot summer. I’m more Sunny lagers, winter Guinness. it’s funny you say Guinness, actually, because I had a conversation with one of the investors, just kind of like, you know, catch up and meet each other and, you know, I pick his brains, he picks mine type thing. And he was kind of like, “Okay, we can’t sell merch in year one, but who in Ireland is a big professional sports franchise that sells loads of merch?” And I was like, “Well, you know, some of the domestic rugby teams do, but there isn’t like a huge culture around it.” obviously, GAA, Gaelic Games, which is the national sport, everyone has a jersey, but that’s a, that’s an amateur organization. That’s a bit different. You can’t really call that a big franchise that exists to make money, albeit they are very profitable, but they are in theory an amateur organization. And the best is a domestic local League of Ireland football/soccer team called Bohemians, who every year make a novelty jersey, one of which was a sponsorship with Guinness a couple of years ago. And they basically fund their entire operation because they sell soccer jerseys everywhere in the world, and they make quite a lot of money doing so, massively disproportionately for the size of their team. And then this own franchise owner was, like, frantically scribbling this down. So I don’t know if he’s gonna go off and look to do a collab with Guinness at any stage soon. But that was the example that I, that I gave to him because, there is, there is an example in Irish sport of, okay, it’s a small market. We’re not gonna make loads of money off TV, off sponsorship, but if we build, you know, creative merch culture that goes global, which this football team has, then you might, you might be able to make a few extra, few extra quid.
Peter Della Penna
Well, and on that point, too, I 1st heard of Wrexham not through the Ryan Reynolds documentary series. I 1st came across Wrexham and became more aware of their jump up through the English football, you know, the League One, League Two, to the Championship, whatever, because they’ve got a United Airlines sponsorship. And when I fly United, at one point last year, or a couple years ago now, United used to sponsor the US Olympic teams. And when you would get to your seats in an Olympic year, United would have some little trinket or giveaway that was, like, to support the US Olympic team. It could be a drawstring bag, or it could be, like, an amenity kit, whatever. And then after their US Olympic partnership sponsorship ended with United, and I think Delta took over that deal, United’s main kind of sponsorship giveaway on flights turned into an amenity kit for Wrexham United. I was like, “What the hell is this?” And because it had the Welsh colors on it, and I was I open it says Wrexham. I was like, “Why are they… Why is Wrexham, some anonymous football league club in Wales, being promoted on a United Airlines flight?” And then I realized, oh, they’re not so anonymous anymore. They’ve got a whole big documentary crew following them thanks to Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElhenney and the… Is it Netflix or Prime? What, what is it?…
Zee Zaidi
One or the other, yeah.
Peter Della Penna
You know, they’ve, you know, they’ve got a huge following. And so now people know about Wrexham, through United. So it, you know, that those kind of things, like you’re talking about, Nathan, the small team, relatively speaking, because they’ve got a good sponsorship with Guinness, suddenly everybody wants to their hands on a jersey. You know, and if that can happen with the ETPL sooner than later, I think that would contribute to more-
Nathan Johns
You can’t go You can’t go to a music festival in the UK without bumping into a Bohemians football jersey. That’s all I’ll say. And I can guarantee you none of those people are paying 15 euro every Friday night to watch a stream of Bohemians in Dalymount Park. I can guarantee you those people are not doing that, but they do have a jersey.
Zee Zaidi
So the Euro Nations Cup, is in the works, right, for 2027. I think Netherlands, Ireland, Scotland are the ones be Same countries behind this ETPL are also driving that. I think there’s gonna be more countries involved. and they, you know, they’ve had stops and starts as well, but it seems like that is happening, or supposedly happening, right?
Nathan Johns
Oh, yeah, where do you start with this one? I mean, [sighs] it kind of depends on who you speak to. I mean, obviously, a lot of people I would speak to are on the Irish side of things, and they’re really driving this project, and therefore it’s in their interest when speaking to journalists on or off the record to be really positive about it and try and get the impression that this is absolutely 100% gonna happen, in the same way that there has been a lot of positivity over the Euro Slam and then the ETPL happening in the last, 7, 8 years. my understanding of this is, look, they obviously want England to be involved. They wanna create They There is a brand and a, and a marketing that makes sense to European fans readily available in trying to copy Rugby Six Nations, which is one of the most successful international sports tournaments going because it’s just been around forever. And no matter who you are, even if you’re not a rugby fan, you know, every Saturday for 2 months in February, you go to the pub and watch whatever team you’re in, whatever country you’re in, what, playing rugby. [hisses] and they wanna get a similar thing going. Obviously, Scotland, England, Ireland, that’s, you know, compatible with the rugby analogy. The Netherlands less so. Italy, that would work if they get them involved. but commercially, it all hinges on England’s involvement, right? initially, the sense from DCB was their calendar is too packed and not quite sure if it makes sense for them commercially. Would they make any money out of it TV wise? Obviously, if England there’s no English team, then there definitely won’t be a lucrative TV deal to show this. Cricket Ireland managed to get the MCC instead to kind of step in and, A, host it because they have a sec Obviously, they’ve got Lord’s, but they have a second ground in Wormsley Cricket Club in the Played quite a lot of matches and then play host to the final at Lord’s. But the the latest reporting that was done by Timothy Abraham in the BBC, and, you know, I subsequently checked it out, and it sounded like it was, it was all, you know, Tim had done a good job, was that, for some reason, I don’t know the exact rules, but for some reason, even if the ECB isn’t involved in an international tournament, if it’s happening on English soil- they still, they still-
Zee Zaidi
They can they have approval rights.
Nathan Johns
They… Yeah, exactly. And they decided not to approve it, even though they wouldn’t play in it, which obviously went down like a a lead balloon in cricketing circles. It would have been a very easy win for them to say, “Yeah, let them play. Doesn’t matter. Nothing to do with us if they wanna go ahead and the MCC wants to fund it.” And I think actually there was gonna be an MCC team, ’cause obviously they’ve got members who played quite a lot, high lot- … high level of cricket, so they could actually put together an English team, in air quotes. but yeah, the ECB has vetoed, and that was the latest update. I don’t know where the project goes from here, because obviously if who you thought was gonna host it and pay for the grounds isn’t now not able to do that, then you have a very significant and very expensive aspect of the competition which is now lacking, in theory.
Zee Zaidi
Yeah. What it’s… Look, what it’s… I should correct myself. It’s… What was announced was Ireland, Scotland, Netherlands, and Italy, right? So 4 teams, like you’re saying, in like a, like a 6 Nations Cup. It’s gonna start off as 4. There’s gonna be no England. ‘Cause I mean, who else would you include at this point, right? Those are the 4 continental European… well, not 4 EU nations that have cricket at a certain level, right? So that’s who it is. But yeah, I don’t know. I know one of those countries might have to host it. I know… I don’t know how… Like you’re saying, how… Without England there, how commercially viable it’s gonna be.
Nathan Johns
Well, I don’t think any of them can afford to host it. I mean, we all know how… Well, sorry, we… I certainly I’ve I’m inundated, and 80% of what I write about is how Cricket Ireland can’t afford to host a significant volume of cricket ’cause they don’t have a stadium, and they gotta pay hundreds of thousands of euro when it’s a test match that goes into the 1000000 euro mark to dress up a club ground as an international venue. Stands, but equally, –
Zee Zaidi
Like Malahide or whatever, which is beautiful, but it’s all makeshift grounds, right?
Nathan Johns
Malahide is actually too unaffordable now because at least… Like, if they play in Belfast, the clubhouse in Belfast that is there is ICC, up to ICC standards for players and match officials. Malahide, their clubhouse is too old and it isn’t, so they actually have to build a second clubhouse when they play in Malahide. And Dublin’s is a much more expensive city than Belfast. So they actually didn’t host any men’s international cricket in Malahide this year. The only reason there’s gonna be any level men’s cricket in Malahide this year is ’cause the ETPL is gonna pay for it.
Peter Della Penna
The last time I was in Malahide was in 2015 for the T20 World Cup qualifier, and at the time, I was shocked at how bones the facility is. I mean, it literally is a club facility. It’s not… I think the image that’s projected to people around the world when they turn on a test match or they turn on international and they see Malahide, they think, “Oh, this is what it always looks like.” And the reality is that is definitely not the case. And I don’t think people would appreciate that unless they’ve actually been there when it’s outside of the international window to really understand the scale of building up temporary structures and why Cricket Ireland has shifted away from there. And yeah, to Nathan’s point, it’s no wonder why they struggle to host these fixtures and that they’ve shifted a lot of them to playing in England- … or having to go to Belfast. and that’s why there’s such a great sense of urgency to get that facility. If they can get it, built and, you know, you hear different noises about the stage of progress that the permanent facility that is, has been in the works.
Nathan Johns
Oh, that’ll happen. They’ve turned ground. Government have signed a check. That’s, that’s all, that’s all good. Yeah, that’s… They’re they’re gonna have a stadium 2029.
Zee Zaidi
Yeah, the National Cricket Center, right? They broke ground. I saw that… We ran the story about the pictures and whatnot. And there’s gonna be a center, and there’s gonna be the stadium, and it’s, like, in time for the World Cup, right? look, you know, this go to me, this goes to a, [clears throat] a point that is… I’m open about this. one of my, I would say, biases, agendas, missions, like whenever I go to England, anyone I speak to, right, whether it’s ECB, MCC, clubs, whatever, I… my… Like, the dead horse that I beat until it’s a pulp is that I think England needs to take a bigger role internationally in helping grow and develop the sport, right? I feel like England has ceded that completely to India, and the world thinks of like, “Okay, the Indian team’s got a tour, and that’s how we’re gonna make our money.” Fine. But, but I think England needs to think of itself as a Europe… as a regional power as well. They’re a global power, but they’re a regional power, and Europe is England’s backyard. And I think every… ‘Cause I saw you, Nathan, right, a year ago. Malahide, the one time I was there, right, was for the Ireland series last year. I mean, bare bones, I agree with Peter, but beautiful, right? I have I have… Like, very few grounds are that gorgeous, right? I thought I was walking into a castle in a different time period. But just the, just the presence of England did so much, right? The crowds were there. It was packed. It was just electric. And, you know, if England can just think more about, “Hey, how do we help cricket develop in Europe,” right, without even spending money, they can do a lot. and I just think that would be good for the sport. I mean, people… these countries need to think of themselves more as regional powers in addition to, like, whatever position they have. Like, globally, fine, India’s always gonna have the most resources. That’s fine. That’s great. But within Europe, like, England is one of the… [lip smack] England is one of the few I would say England and and India might be the only two countries where… and Australia, probably those 3, where cricket can exist without an ICC subsidy. Australia’s borderline. Right? But, England and India, if, like, the ICC went away tomorrow, cricket would not die in England or India. It would, it would keep going. and England’s gotta, I just think, do more, to help cricket grow in the region. It would be good. Peter, sorry. Go ahead, go ahead.
Peter Della Penna
There’s 2 points that come to mind for me based on what you and Nathan have both brought up. One, when you talk about England has to do more, and you mentioned England playing Ireland last year in Malahide. I was there in 2018 covering the Scotland ODI when Scotland beat England. That was just after Scotland had failed to qualify for the 2019 ODI World Cup. And here you have the number one ranked team coming in to Edinburgh and playing that off match, and Scotland wins. And then England, the number one ranked team at the time, goes on to win the 2019 World Cup. It was an incredible occasion. When you talk about the crowds coming in and the atmosphere and everything at Malahide and what that brought in terms of revenue and just notoriety and exposure, the ground in Edinburgh was packed. I mean, it was they had a it was mostly temporary, seating, which they do when they have matches at the Grange, but they could squeeze in 6,000 people there, and the atmosphere at the Grange was incredible. And they haven’t had a match since then [chuckling] between the 2 countries outside of World Cups, which is just extraordinary- … to think about because in terms of building up cricket, you talk about having responsibility and playing a role as a leader, as the full member in the region, or the head full member if Ireland is now obviously full member 2. But, like, the fact that there has never been a match, a bilateral scheduled since then between Scotland and England is blowing to me. They played in Barbados in the 2024 T20 World Cup, and then they had a match in Kolkata in the last T20 World Cup in, February. But beyond that, you know, how is that possible? It You know, it just blows my mind, and it’s a shame because Scotland could have capitalized on that. The whole region could have capitalized on that, and it, again, gives more credence to having a regional event. and then kind of the other part of this, too, in terms of England, whether they participate or not, all they had to do was stamp the event, okay? And what I find strange is the fact that the English watching public is extremely parochial in the sense that the overwhelming majority of them watch England, and that’s it. They don’t watch other teams unless England is playing them. So, for example, when England played Nepal in their opening match at the T20 World Cup this year, that was the 1st time a lot of people had ever heard of, heard of Dipendra Singh Airee or heard of Kieron Casey or heard of Rohit Paudel or any of the Nepal players. They just don’t follow cricket outside of England. to a lesser extent, they might follow Australia just because they’re watching Australia, but they don’t follow Australia just out of a love of cricket. And so from that standpoint, I can understand a perspective of, all right, maybe the ECB didn’t want a event happening at Lord’s over fears of kind of, to use Nathan’s word, you know, cannibalizing or, you know, pirating or ambushing, something that would be happening domestically in England, or if there’s a England international series happening at the same time. But the reality is, nobody would be watching that series in England anyway in terms of, you know, you wouldn’t have to worry about, oh, if Ireland is playing Scotland at Lord’s, that’s gonna eat into the people who potentially would be watching England play West Indies at the Oval on the other side of the city. Nobody who was buying a ticket to watch West Indies at the Oval or Pakistan or England, any of the O None of those people who are England fans would be buying a ticket to go to Lord’s to watch any team but England. They’re not gonna be interested in buying a ticket to watch Scotland or Netherlands or Netherlands or Italy. So the fact that they’ve rejected it is almost out of spite, it seems like, more than anything, because there really is no legitimate fear that you would have to worry about, “-oh, we’re gonna see a departure from our own fan base, and we’re gonna have to worry about selling tickets to our own events if they’re happening simultaneously,” whether it’s across the city at the Oval or in Nottingham, at Trent Bridge, or in Manchester. Like… And similarly for TV rights. Yes, obviously it would help if England was involved, but if they’re saying, “Oh, you know, if you schedule, an West Indies match, an ODI or a T20 on TV on the same day as Scotland is supposed to be playing Ireland at Lord’s,” like, whoever is gonna be watching the England match on TV is not gonna be flipping channels to see what’s going on in the Ireland game. So there’s, there’s not there’s, like, no Venn diagram crossover in terms of English cricket fan base versus broad cricket fan base. And so from that perspective, I find it very puzzling why they would not just give their blessing in order to allow these other countries in the region to try and explore and try and monetize something, regardless of whether or not England themselves wants to be actively engaged in it from a including them in the series itself as a participating team.
Zee Zaidi
Yeah. I mean, that is a big one, right? I… On a, on a related point, I’ve always been a fan of… This doesn’t solve the TV problem, not totally. I’ve always been a fan of, like, the big 3 or the big countries having A teams that are very active, right? Like, you, you just need to send someone. Right? You don’t need Because you gotta give the players a break. You can’t have, you know, Shubman Gill touring 12 months a year, but you can There’s enough talent there to have a, you know, an A team that people wanna be on and travel and play some of these associate countries more often, right? I think it’s, it’s, it’s doable. I just, I wish I’d see more of it. but let’s, let’s shift gears. there’s one last topic I wanna make sure we wanna cover, which has also been in the news, which is, you know, what’s happening with the ODI format, right? There’s a lot of, lot of discussion, a lot of activity. let me, let me read a couple of quotes. You know, Sanja Gupta, CEO of the ICC, started this discussion off, right? It had already been going on at the ICC Annual General Meeting, but recently he said, quote, “The era of randomly scheduled bilateral series has come to an end because countries will not be able to sustain cricket without context, culture, competition, and competitiveness, which require significant investment of resources, both financial and financial. There is a place for the format, the ODI format, in the product portfolio, which is inextricably linked to men’s and women’s World Cups. We need to look at what we want the format to stand for and how we want it to evolve, including the expanse of participation.” Right? And then Cricket Scotland and Cricket Netherlands issued… Cricket Scotland and Netherlands issued a joint statement basically about what was going on, saying, “Scotland and the KNCB are deeply disappointed by the ICC’s recent decision to implement significant structural changes to the ICC Men’s 50 Over World Cup qualification.” We’ll talk about that as well, right? The qualification pathway was changed pretty dramatically for associates. with less than 18 months to go, these changes are a setback to the associate member cricket in a big way and risk undermining the progress in recent years to grow the global game, right? For a lot of associates, the ODI format is the long format. They don’t By definition, they don’t play test, and they’re not happy to see it, to, to see it go or scaled back or their path towards playing in the World Cup, you know, in any way, diminished. So what do you guys make of what’s going on?
Nathan Johns
Well, there is an irony to the CEO of the ICC saying meaning contextless ODIs are pointless when the ICC infamously culled the ODI Super League, which was a vehicle that they had at their disposal to make ODI cricket more interesting. And certainly from the Irish point of view, was a significant help to them. And if it wasn’t for one bad series, I think against the Dutch, they would have qualified for the 223 World Cup directly. you know, they performed well over the course of the league. They became a very good ODI team. I think they beat South Africa at home, from memory, and they beat England away in one of, one of those COVID series in the bubble in Southampton. I remember, like, that series very well. so I don’t really It’s frustrating to hear this coming out when it you know, what are we, 3 years after the demise of that competition? It’s like, well, yeah, of course.
Nathan Johns
You know, you’re asking people to spend, you know, in the UK, I think I went to England, India, ODI in Cardiff. I think it cost like 80 pounds. So you’re asking people to spend that much money on an event that lasts a 100 overs. Teams over rates are just diabolical these days. These games take so much longer than they used to. So you’re asking people to invest- -their money and their time in a format that strictly doesn’t really mean anything outside of, you know, did will the West Indies win enough games to qualify directly, or will they go to the qualifiers? That type of thing. so if this results in another Super League, which was kind of hinted at in some reporting a year ago, great. I don’t think it will. I don’t think there is the appetite from some of the bigger teams to have to be in a competition that forces them to play against teams that they know they won’t make any TV money off playing. so if the only other option is then to kind of just be an ODI cricket apart from qualifiers and World Cups, then, you know, what’s, what’s, what’s kind of the point of that? I mean, I know the smaller nations, especially, certainly in Europe, where they kind of, you know, by osmosis take a lot of their… The cricket people over here take their watching habits from England, and England is all about the longer formats. And obviously, the Dutch and the Scots don’t play test cricket, and Ireland barely play test cricket. So the next best thing is ODIs. And I can tell you for a fact, whenever Ireland won an ODI World Cup game and had way more cut through than when they beat England in the MCG in 22 in a T20 World Cup game. Like, it just means more to the cricket people in this part of the world. Maybe it is cultural. Maybe the longer format doesn’t mean as much to people in more powerful parts of the world. but I that it does not surprise me that the Dutch and the Scots publicly came out against the reduction of teams in, in the ODI World Cup and are generally not happy with the direction of travel with 50 overs because, you know, cricket’s an event. That’s It’s, it’s something you go to, you spend the day at, you meet your friends, you take bring your family, you bring a picnic. If you’re going to Lord’s and paying 150 quid a ticket, you bring a bottle of champagne. And, you know, it’s, it’s people wanna go and have a day’s long entertainment. so to kind of minimize… And I know test cricket is that, but for a lot of countries, ODI cricket is that as well. So I think where they’re kind of failing to see the wood for the trees a little bit here, like ODI cricket, if it’s done properly and means something, I think is something that can… It’s in countries that need to grow fan bases. It can be grown because you can say, “Come and sit here when it’s 25 degrees, for 6, 7, 8 hours and, you know, if you wanna get drunk, get drunk. If you wanna bring your kids out the back and they can play on the grass out back, do that. If you wanna autograph hunt all day, you can do that.” Whereas that’s, that’s a lot harder in shorter matches, I think. and culturally, that’s it’s important to bear that in mind in certain parts of the world.
Peter Della Penna
I think the perspective from people who are actively engaged in the American cricket community is that they’re upset at the shifting of the goalposts, because USA would have been in line realistically- … to have one of those spots in a genuine team event, team event, compared to the ICC 14 team with a really exciting opening round of 3 teams, right? so USA is harmed. I would say Ireland is harmed. I mean, you have the fact that as of now, it’s, it’s West Indies, Ireland of the full members who are gonna drop back into the qualifier, and the fact that both of them effectively now have to kind of duke it out with whether it’s USA, Scotland, Netherlands, Nepal, whatever, just to avoid being one of the 3 teams that drops back into that triangular, right? that’s unfair to Ireland. But for the US, I think it’s purely the shifting of the goalposts. If this was the format that was laid out at the start of the cycle in 2024, I think people would have just shrugged their shoulders and said, “Hey, it’s out of our hands. We just gotta do what we can do and plod ahead.” The fact that they’d gotten their hopes up by dominating the Super League… I mean, technically speaking, Scotland has retaken USA on the points lead, but USA has 4 matches in hand, and Scotland’s slate of 36 matches is finished. So USA realistically is gonna move ahead Scotland to finish as the champions of the League 2 table. I mean, USA, this is the 1st genuine chance of ever qualifying for a over World Cup, and that excitement, at whatever level it is in the context of scale American sports culture, is… has had cold water thrown over it. Because again, this is something that just speaks more broadly to the cricket ecosystem’s bizarre fetish, if you will, for just trying to undermine its own sport and actively speak down about its own sport. “Oh, no, we don’t, we don’t want more people playing. [chuckling] We don’t want more games. We don’t want more fans. We should limit the amount of people who are getting access to test cricket. We should limit the amount of people who are getting access to ODI cricket. We don’t want more fans. We don’t want other countries that are newer markets potentially getting interest. That that would be a bad idea.” and this is another example that it’s just very strange as somebody who, again, didn’t grow up with cricket, came into the sport at a later time in my life with so much excitement, and had this eyed kind of, not necessarily utopian, but, you know, I had a lot of hope and ambition and dreams for what cricket could be for an American, and by extension, a lot of the other teams. And seeing what Ireland and Afghanistan were able to achieve, again, that served as a role model for the countries like a Nepal or a Papua New Guinea or a USA or a Canada to say like, “Hey, this is what you can do too.” If Ireland and Afghanistan were able to achieve it, and if you go further back, if Bangladesh was able to achieve it or Zimbabwe, hey, other countries can do it too. And yet, when Ireland and Afghanistan achieved full member status and test status in 2017, what did the ICC do? They immediately chopped off the Intercontinental Cup and said, “No, we’re not gonna have a day pathway for anybody else going forward ever again.” And now they’re… you’re seeing the initial steps potentially of that happening in day cricket, which is a shame because, again, you think about all the talk about, “Oh, USA is an emerging market. USA is the next frontier. 2028 Olympics, we wanna keep growing the game. We’re building off momentum for the 2024 T20 World Cup. Gonna have the Olympics,” blah, blah, blah. And this is an opportunity to promote USA and say, “Hey, they can stand on equal footing with some of these other countries.” Because you have to remember, at the end of the day, there is that elitist attitude in terms of the cricket community when it comes to how they talk about T20 cricket versus how they talk about day cricket or test cricket. T20 cricket is still, to some degree, seen as not as legitimate as the other formats in terms of, well, the longer formats you play, the more legitimate it is, which, goes on to Nathan’s point about people in Ireland remember the 2000 2007 victory over Pakistan and the 2011 victory over England and the 2015 victory over West Indies. You know, all those wins are talked about. You know, Kevin O’Brien. How did Kevin O’how did, Kevin O’Brien become a legend? By scoring the century against England in a over World Cup. There’s, there’s no equivalent performance that has happened in T20 cricket that people talk about. You know, Ireland beating Bangladesh in the 2009 T20 World Cup in England, no… I don’t remember anybody ever bringing that up in a conversation about that being a transcendent moment in Irish cricket and then launching a T20 revolution and leading to the ETPL one day. Like, no, it was all the stuff that [chuckles] happened going back to St. Patrick’s- … Day in 2007 in Kingston and Kevin O’Brien and continuing forward from that. And the fact that USA is now being denied effectively an equivalent opportunity or having that opportunity have another obstacle set up in front of it for them to potentially achieving that, I think it’s, it’s unfortunate. But, when you think about in a broader scale, you know, are people upset about this? are they picketing in the streets, Zee? you know, is there a stampede of people who are outraged in New York or San Francisco or Dallas? No. and that’s one of the reasons I feel like the And cricket at large is able to get away with these things because there isn’t as much emotional attachment in some of these other countries where you don’t have a visceral reaction of people outraged. It’s not making front page headlines. You know, it wasn’t in the New York Times, “USA 50 of World Cup chances greatly reduced after ICC decision.” It doesn’t get talked about like that.
Zee Zaidi
Let me… Peter, let me ask you a factual question ’cause I just wanna understand. The… In the CWC League 2, Scotland’s played 36 matches and the US has played 32, and we’re 2 points behind. I’m sorry, we. I, I, I revealed my biases there. I love the Scots. We’re 2 points behind, right? So do we not have 4 matches left, or…
Peter Della Penna
There’s 4 matches that are gonna be played in October in Dallas- … against Namibia and the UAE. So if USA wins 2 out of those 4, which realistically they should-
Zee Zaidi
Or with one, we we’ll, we’ll tie on points if we win one, right? Oh, but our net-
Peter Della Penna
And then-
Zee Zaidi
… net run rates are pretty close.
Peter Della Penna
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Zee Zaidi
So there is a, there is a shot, at getting that… You know, there… ‘Cause there’s one… The top CW… There’s 10 teams already qualified, the top through the, through the, you know, the, the hosts and the, and the full member nations. And then the 11th team is gonna be the winner of the CWC League 2 table, and then the 12th team is gonna be that winner of the way series at the beginning, right? So it’s essentially gonna be a team tournament.
Peter Della Penna
But you think about this, right? What I remember the ICC doing a couple years ago was the Cricket World Cup League 2 used to be branded as World Cricket League Championship forever, I say forever, from 2007 when the World Cricket League was instituted, until 2021, thereabouts, 2019, 2020, 2021. For about a year stretch, World Cricket League was the associate level competition. And- … it was one of my favorite things to cover, and it had a year established run of identity. Well, the ICC said, “We’re tearing that up. We’re rebranding what was World Cricket League Division One. We’re gonna call it Cricket World Cup League 2.” And I remember talking to ICC officials, “Why are you rebranding it? The World Cricket League is pretty well established as an identity.” “Well, we’re bringing everything together under the Cricket World Cup umbrella because we think it will be a more effective marketing vehicle to brand everything as Cricket World Cup and part of the Cricket World Cup pathway, and educate fans better to make them understand that this is inclusive of the Cricket World Cup process, because there’s a little bit of a disconnect with World Cricket League and some confusion what does that actually mean. So if we just start calling everything Cricket World Cup, whether it’s the actual tournament itself or Cricket World Cup League 2 as part of the qualifying process, this will enhance the branding and enhance the marketing ability and enhance these countries’ abilities to get sponsors and make people understand, like, this is all associated with the Cricket World Cup.” And so they went that route to try and ostensibly build up the identity of this competition and say, “This is really important. These matches matter.” 36 matches over the course of 3 years that are all part of the pathway in a, in a similar way that the Super League was. You know, ICC ODI Super League, these 24 matches mean something. There’s context behind it. These are gonna count towards World Cup qualification. And then, after telling these countries who are, either part of the Super League or the ones in the associate tier who are part of Cricket World Cup League 2 to to then talk out of both sides of their mouth and say, “This is important. This is part of the Cricket World Cup and all that process,” and then say, “Well, actually, now you’ve gotta go through this extra step,” it feels like they’ve just completely undermined 3 years worth of identity building or branding or marketing that, “Hey, this all matters for the Cricket World Cup,” when in reality, it matters very little at the end of the day when you look at it, because now there’s another hurdle that they’ve gotta jump through.
Zee Zaidi
Yeah. Yep. You know, when you step back, though, I don’t… I’m a little ambivalent about this one. as an American, as a citizen of 2 associate countries, [chuckles] both of which have suspended boards right now, Canada and the US. Like, I don’t know what that says about me, but, [chuckles] but there you have it. But as a citizen of 2 associate countries, this totally bums me out. Looking at the sport globally, like, there’s… I don’t know any other sport that has 3 formats. I mean, tennis, maybe you can say singles, doubles, mixed doubles. but this is… You know, like, team sports, to have 3 formats, you don’t really… Big picture, that’s hard to sustain, right, for the same set of players. So, you gotta feel like something has to give at some point. But-
Peter Della Penna
Well, it’s not so much that they have 3 formats, but it’s, it’s that, like, the people who are in charge of ostensibly running the different formats are always talking down about the other 2 formats. It’s, it’s not like they’re… It’s… They treat, they treat the 3 formats as a sum game to a certain extent. Like, if you love Test cricket, well, then you can’t really truly love T20 cricket ’cause that’s not real cricket. Test cricket is real cricket. Or-
Zee Zaidi
Yeah, but the sum game is the calendar, isn’t it, right? It’s… There’s the 365 days in the year is what makes it a sum game, is kind of the reality. I mean, I’m just, you know, like, real talk, right? I mean, Nathan, what were you were gonna say something?
Nathan Johns
Well, I was just gonna say, for me, the biggest point about this is the cultural differences. Like, I completely get why in associate nations that don’t have the proximity to an England where longer formats are king, this is the ambivalence. I’d be ambivalent if I was in, if I was in that situation. But my strong belief is that cricket doesn’t become a mainstream sport in Scotland, Netherlands, Ireland. I don’t know, I don’t know much about the Dutch kind of cricket media or watching culture. You know, I know a lot about Ireland and Scotland is pretty applicable with England here. Like, T20 cricket is not gonna grow cricket in Ireland or Scotland. T20 cricket will not become a mainstream sport in those 2 countries, and I would be pretty confident of adding the Dutch in there as well because they have a similar history, of, you know, club cricket and guys standing there all day on a Saturday playing, and those guys ultimately ended up playing for their countries. so that’s why it’s fascinating because the makers are looking at franchise leagues are making money in Asian and associate markets, and test cricket is making money in England and Australia. So that’s kind of what they’re looking at. Whereas, obviously, I’m coming at it from my lens of going, “Well, cricket isn’t making any money in Ireland.” But, you know, unless you convince every single South Asian expat in the country to consistently go and watch games that prob that may or may not involve the countries that they’re originally from of T20 cricket that happen in Ireland, which maybe the ETPL is part of that project, but it’s only 4 weeks of the year. Unless you can convince that, nobody, nobody who comes from a cricket background who plays club cricket in Ireland is gonna be desperate to watch just T20 cricket, going forward. Now, if we solve our test cricket issues and play a bit more test cricket, that might help things, but that’s too expensive for us. So ODI cricket’s the next best thing. I’ll give you, I’ll give you an example. Like, the only time in the last 12 months cricket has got mainstream media coverage in Ireland is when they got a new CEO, and that was because she was famous from swimming, which is an Olympic sport that won loads of medals. So that wasn’t a cricket interest. That was a, an Olympic swimming interest. –
Zee Zaidi
And the 1st woman, right?
Nathan Johns
And the 1st woman.
Zee Zaidi
The 1st woman of a, of a, of a full member 1st woman CEO of a full member nation, right? I mean, Clara Connor was temporary, but yeah.
Nathan Johns
Sure, but the non, but the non, but the cricket media didn’t care about that in Ireland. I mean, it’s, it’s kinda like we’re I think there’s like they’re, they’re past the stage of… You know, Cricket Ireland obviously made a big deal about that, but I think it was kinda like a, “Well, this woman has been really successful in another field. Why is she changing?” Do you know what I mean? And that was the point of interest. the other time they got coverage was the ETPL because there’s private equity and, like, business heads were going, “What’s all this money thrown around in Irish sport all of a sudden?” and the other time the cricket got mainstream coverage was when Ben Stokes and England imploded, both in Australia and then in nightclubs in their own country. Like, England’s nightclub escapades get more coverage in Ireland than the Irish white ball team. So if that’s not an indicator of people’s… And equally the Ashes, because it’s kind of like this is compelling. This is… You know, Chris Woakes with his one arm, everyone over here was like, “Whoa, what is going on here?” And I was kind of like, “Oh, you know, we’re playing a match test match in 12 months,” but nobody cared about that. So that’s kind of why I come at it from a… You know, Ireland playing 3 T20s against whoever they’re gonna play against next year, great, but ain’t selling tickets. No, no one really cares unless it’s England. And even then, when it was England, they were supposed to be ODIs, and everyone moaned about how they got changed to T20s because they had to be put back to September, and we don’t have enough light and floodlights to play over cricket in September.
Zee Zaidi
Peter, you wanna get you wanna have Peter, you can have the final world word, and then we’ll wrap.
Peter Della Penna
Well, no, to Nathan’s point, and even pseudo US cricket coverage, if you will, The Athletic, which is an extension of the New York Times, the only stuff I’ve ever seen that gets shown across my feed that gets mixed in with my NFL alerts or my college football alerts or New York Mets alerts from The Athletic was when the Stokes stuff happened, and that got some attention within The Athletic, and that was beamed through everybody’s general sports feed if you’ve got an Athletic subscription in the US. So again, that was England international, more centric coverage that was deemed big enough to get some sort of coverage to a degree within the New York Times/The Athletic. The only time USA has gotten coverage in the New York Times or The Athletic was when they beat Pakistan in 2024. Even during the 2026 T20 World Cup, there was zero coverage, as far as I can remember, coming across in terms of dedicated stuff for USA related coverage in The Athletic. And that includes opening night when they got to play against India. Anytime you’re, you’re playing against India, whether it’s Ireland or USA or any other country for that matter, that’s supposed to be headline news. And especially because of the fact that you had Trump tweeting about the US team because Sergio Gore, the ambassador to the US, was at the match. And so Donald Trump is tweeting about, “Hey, I hear we have a very strong cricket team. You know, we’re here for you. We believe in you.” Whatever the hell the tweet said, I forget. But you’ve got somebody who’s got 40 million followers on social media, who’s the leader of the head of state tweeting about US cricket. Like, that generated some coverage just naturally because of the personality of Trump. But, like, in terms of, like, a match report or like, “Hey, let’s follow up on that and write about Shadley van Schalkwyk and his 4 wickets, and talk about Shubman Gill dropping Suryakumar Yadav and how if that hadn’t happened, USA might actually have beaten India.” Like, did that actually get Column inches in US outlets? No. Of… you know, of course not. So, you know, on Nathan’s point, even in the US, in spite of the fact that they made waves in the 2024 T20 World Cup and Saurabh Netravalkar had cult hero status during the course of that event, and now he’s developed that cult hero status to the extent that he’s now endorsing Lexus cars and driving in Lexus cars, which is pretty cool. you know, the… beyond that, in terms of, like, sustaining that momentum and making people care, to Nathan’s point, you know, is T20 achieving that? Realistically, no. Not in the, not in the way that people within the ICC or people who are running cricket administratively say, “Yeah, T20 is the vehicle of the future. T20 is gonna get fans. T20 is gonna do this and that.” Even in the US, where everybody has been talked to death about, “Well, 3 hours is the perfect timeframe, and that’s what T20 provides for Americans,” and blah, blah, it’s not happening. So if it’s not happening here and on Nathan’s reasons for why it ostensibly may not realistically be the ideal way to go about growing the game in Scotland or the Netherlands or Ireland, you know, again, it’s, it’s,… it makes you kind of wonder what, you know, what is the strategy and how it’s gonna be effective.
Nathan Johns
A very quick point. I’m just skeptical about people who tell you that T20 is the vehicle to grow cricket everywhere in the world. I’m in my 20s. My buddies who are not cricket guys, they didn’t grow up playing the sport necessarily, who are the target audience, because apparently everybody needs people under the age of 35 watching their sport, even though people over that age have way more money and spend more money when they go to watch these events, but that’s by the by. those guys who I’m, like, in group chats with, et cetera, who are sports fans, but not necessarily cricket fans, what are they compelled by? They’re compelled by… they stay up late to watch the Ashes. They’re, they’re, they’re annoyed at England losing 2 days. They’re, find the, the wokes arm thing fascinating. you know, they’re infuriated that Ollie Robinson can only apparently one play one test match and then has to go and rest for 2 weeks or whatever. or they’re really annoyed that England went to Mumbai and, you know, the excrement hit the fan at a at an ODI World Cup. Were they up in arms when they won the 2022 T20 World Cup? they barely registered, you know? and I think that, that sums it up. That’s not… I’m not saying that I speak for every man in his 20s as a general sports fan in Europe, but, I think that would be reasonably indicative.
Zee Zaidi
Yeah. Well, on that note, guys, I think my takeaways are, one, Guinness needs to sponsor everything in cricket worldwide, and 2, we need the England boys to party more at nightclubs, and then our sport’s gonna… Everything’s gonna be okay. Everything’s gonna work out.
Nathan Johns
Well, they haven’t stopped partying in nightclubs- -in recent years. So they’re, they’re doing, they’re doing their bit….
